How much did you profit from the crash?

the crash is still in progress

if i close my position today, i gained 20% from the crash, but i lost over 40% before the crash

is anyone profiting from this shit?

@4
Duhhhhhhhh.

When people are becoming so poor that they cannot buy the things they once afforded, but they are working just as hard or harder than before, SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE is profiting.

Real wealth is not destroyed easily like money.

[keli] @5 yeah but none of those banker crooks would be on here

Anyone want to explain it to those of us who don't know what's going on?

UltraShort DOW30
UltraShort S&P5000
UltraShort NASDAQ100
@4 read the comments posted on Google Finance's discuss

[keli] @7 you mean beside's the "make easy money off the crash" comments ?

@7 When market isa crashin', profit from teh shortin'.

[keli] Brave G7 talk amidst growing panic

Group of Seven finance chiefs have announced a plan of action to fight a global crisis including support of key institutions.

www.presstv.ir

@7
Simply, the game you've been playing in (mainly: the creation & distribution of money) has been rigged all along.

These kinds of periods are designed into the core of the system. They don't tend to happen more than once during a person's lifetime, and when they happen, there is plenty of confusion and mania that nobody knows how to figure it out.

The only thing of value in this system is the real wealth that is produced for the exchange of money. Real wealth cannot be directly manipulated very easily, but when money is assigned to wealth, huge masses of excess wealth can be made & taken easily.

Money as it is used in the U.S. and most other parts of the world is only a tool to trap people into a perpetual debt, to work harder than what would be otherwise necessary, in order to produce excess wealth, the wealth that eventually feeds the masters.

What is your opinion of the Bush administration's bailout plan to end the US economic crisis?

[ ] It would save the US economy
[X] Capitalism has failed and no plan will save the US economy
[ ] The bailout plan is fundamentally flawed and would only serve the interests of Wall Street Czars

@5 Actually, real wealth is easier to destroy not harder than fiat wealth.
You can ram a plane into a building.
You can carpet bomb over an industrial district.
You can blow up a dam before a suburb.
You can nuke gold into worthless shit.

Holy Ultra Short, Batman!!!!!!!! I lol'd.
finance.google.com

@14 It is harder to create.

@14
Money is easier to destroy than real wealth.

It is easier to burn a bill than a building.

I also consider people's bodies to be real wealth. It is easier to shred a dollar than it is to kill a person. But you can enslave the person to producing excess wealth if you can manipulate the money that the person trades his work for.

Those in power to manipulate the money supply can do so by simply raising interest rates to commercial banks, who then stop making loans and start calling in old loans. Which is what we see happening now.

You see, if you are in the power to manipulate money, you can even have a 700 billion bailout package, and still make money scarce in the general population at the same time.

Basically, what one person can't buy, someone else can.

Money is created irrespective of real wealth, and money can be manipulated by those in power over it much more easily than real wealth, and if you can attribute money to real wealth (which U.S. society does systematically) then you can make vast collections of real wealth change hands with only the movement of a pen.

It's been rigged for almost a century in the U.S. already (since the creation of the Federal Reserve), and it has been rigged for much of earlier centuries as well.

To be able to change the game, first we must understand the rules. If people won't understand the rules, nothing will ever change and people will continue working to feed their masters.

@17
How much paper money can you burn or shred per day?
Furthermore, money is not in paper form at higher value.
Shredding plastic money does not destroy fiat wealth.

@14 okay, mr. gold finger.

@5 Work smarter, not harder!

@18
You haven't yet seen it.

The financial system in the U.S. is primarily built upon the use of credit, which for most of us doing business, comes from commercial banks. Businesses all over the country borrow commercial credit every day. Or they usually do.

Credit is a form of money. You are quite right that most money is not in the form of paper. Almost 90% of the money exists only as bits in a computer. It is even easier to destroy this form of money than it is to destroy bills.

What I have explained already is the process of destroying this credit (commercial money, for the most part) by instigating a credit freeze such as we have today.

The freezing of credit in most places is a reduction of the money in circulation, because again, this commercial credit makes up most of the money in use.

The process of loaning money is to create money, and canceling the loan is to destroy that money.

But the money need not be physically destroyed as in the form of burning paper.

@17
Real wealth can be rigged too.
Oil producers can form a cartel to rig the value of oil in terms of silver.
Silver miners can form a cartel to rig the value of silver in terms of land.
Land owners can form a cartel to rig the value of land in terms of oil.
Silver traders can rig the value of silver in terms of other commodities by owning majority of the futures.

It's capitalism. There is no excuse for complaining about equity loss when it is possible to hold cash or even short.

@22
Once again you are quite right.

But the masters responsible for money have already rigged them all toward the money, for it is far easier to rig the money first than it is to get into the messy business of dealing with physical commodities directly.

If you are a business in a country where the use of money is demanded by the government as payment for public debt, you are playing a rigged game.

Oil producers cannot form a cartel to demand payment for oil in terms of silver, for the government recognizes a value in the oil and places taxes on it, a public debt that must be paid in terms of money.

Similarly for the silver and land.

Even if we were to dissolve the money game and traded these commodities directly as you suggest, it is far harder to rig oil, silver, and land for in order to rig them, one must be able to acquire (and control) them. But it is much more costly to acquire these types of physical wealth than it is to acquire money if you are a master who has rigged the money supply, for money is a limitless commodity. One cannot imagine a handful of silver or an acre of land into existence as easily as one can imagine a loan of money into existence.

Now I do not mean that the use of money itself poses a threat, it is only a threat when the money is created through the process of fractional reserve banking. Because it is the process of fractional reserve banking that allows a system to function as if there is actually many times more units of a commodity (the money) in existence than there really are, and all of these virtual units may be treated with interest. Such a feat would be almost impossible to perform with the use of physical commodities.

All borrowers are subject to the expansion/contraction effects of manipulating the supply of money, with little more effort on the part of the masters than simply signing some keystrokes into a computer.

Attributing physical wealth to money leads to excessive creation of wealth followed by concentration of that wealth.

[keli] @24 it's like watching freshmen debate the arrangement of chairs on the titanic

Once upon a time , not so long ago there lived in this land a wise man. One day this wise man was considering and evaluating his assets. He did not have much , but he did have one shinny red apple. It was the biggest , redest apple he ever saw.

Now , the wise man knew that on the 'open market' , in the 'free market' , 'capitalistic' system of his country , that apple was being 'traded' at exactly $1. The value of an apple was $1 , according to all the 'experts' and 'economists' that he spoke to. On the Moron-o-scope the presenter was quoting the price of apples as $1.

The wise man was perplexed and a little annoyed. Surely his apple was shinnier and redder and bigger than all other apples - it must be worth more than $1.

So he paid a local apple merchant , known as an apple 'broker' to try and sell his apple for as much as he could. The 'broker' , in turn started ringing as many people as he could and telling them that "according to past trends , current market forces , our future predictions based on probability algorithms and with careful investment , this apple could easily accumulate to a value at least ten times what it is today."

Pretty soon word began to get around about this special apple and how it was worth as much as ten apples ! People started making offers and 'bidding' against each other , trying to get their hands on the magical apple. The price rose untill finally the highest 'bid' was made by another shrewd apple 'broker' , who had 'borrowed' $9 from the 'bank' to buy the "magic apple." The new owner chuckled to himself thinking "I have already made $1 by buying this for less than its value of $10 , and in a year i will have made ten times what i paid for it because 'according to past trends , current market forces , our future predictions based on probability algorithms and with careful investment , this apple could easily accumulate to a value at least ten times what it is today."

immediately people started clamouring to get their hands on "the magic apple" which , as everybody knew would be worth ten times what you paid for it NOT in a year or so , but in a single WEEK ! People 'mortgaged' their homes , their families , anything to get that "magic apple. Everyone agreed , it would only rise in value and was a brilliant 'investment.'

And so it went , over and over , with people 'borrowing' larger and larger amounts each time and the apple changeing hands for ten times what it was worth the last time , even the banks had to 'borrow' money from other banks who 'borrowed' money from other banks who 'borrowed' money ... just so they could 'loan' the money to apple 'brokers' who just had to have that "magic apple."

Then , one day , when the apple had just exchanged hands for a zillion dollars , one of the banks down the line got in a bit of a financial mess. They had simply 'borrowed' too much money to 'loan' to another bank who 'borrowed' to 'loan' to another bank ... who 'borrowed' to 'loan' to the apple 'broker' who paid a zillion dollars to buy the "magic apple."

The bank decided that it would have to 'capitalise' some of its 'assets' to get out of finacial difficulty. So , they called in the 'loan' they had given to the bank , who were then 'forced' to call in the 'loan' they had given the bank , who called in the loan they had given the bank who , in turn , called in the loan they had given the apple 'broker.'

Now the apple 'broker' did not have a zillion dollars to pay the bank , so the bank 'seized' the 'brokers 'assets' with a court order. They took the 'magic apple' and locked it in their vault , fully 'certified' to prove their 'assets' were worth a zillion dollars. But people began to panic , "something is wrong with the bank !" , "the bottom has fallen out of the apple brokering business !" , "the value of apples is bound to fall !" , and sure enough the panic spread and the 'share' price of banks , apple brokers and apples began to free-fall.

The bank with the "magic apple" decided to "calm investors worries" by having their 'assets' re-evaluated and re-certified. This would prove they were ok and stabilise the market , they thought.

But then they recieved the horrifying news that the "magic apple" was not worth a zillion dollars , but apples were in fact being traded on the 'open market' for less than one dollar. Even worse , the price was still falling , nobody wanted apples anymore and all the apple 'brokers' were gone !

Of course , the bank collapsed and went into 'bankruptcy' and were unable to repay the other bank they had borrowed from , who in turn collapsed and was unable to repay the bank they had borrowed from .... all the way up the chain. Everybody who invested in 'shares' of the bank , had deposits in the bank or even did business with the bank , was wiped out overnight , as they slept in their beds , blissfully unaware that all their hopes and dreams had just gone tit-up and turned to shite.

And all because some asshole of an 'expert' had asserted that an apple could magically increase in value tenfold , when in fact , an apple is just a plain old apple.

THE BEGINING.

c3

it's not magic, it's fraud

[keli] @29 wow man you nailed it !

you're the first person I've seen to spell it out exactly as it is !

great post there c3 :)

@27 You should have used Tulip in your example.
@28 @29 It's what happened in 1637 in Dutch in the Tulipomania. It's not fraud when the commodity is actually trading that high during the bubble.
Housing has a seven year cycle approximately. Those who buy houses at a high price with high debt hoping to sell the houses at even higher prices have only themselves to blame.

wikipedia:tulip mania - first documented speculative bubble in history

[keli] @31 this is the problem with banks ;

and this is the solution ;

Speculative bubble occurs regardless of whether the currency is real of fiat.

While on the topic of ultrashort, if you are in Canada, you can ultrashort Toronto Stock Exchange.

Are there any Jews here who can give me a definition of "ultrashort" and how to ultrashort London?

In the coming disaster and marshal law
have much hope for the future?

What's the point of hording vital essentials if there won't be a disaster?

[keli] What do you think is going to happen now ?
flea markets (just got back from a packed one), yard sales, victory gardens, trade, barter

we're seeing changes here already

1.) flea markets are packed, and expanding
2.) dozens and dozens of yard sale listings in the newspaper (used to be only a few)
3.) traffic on the streets is very light (used to have minor traffic jams) many more bikes and motorcycles
4.) the mall is like a mausoleum, many stored boarded up too

so were do you see disaster ?

stocks are now cheap
arts are now cheap
mall/factory spaces are getting cheaper
goods are getting cheaper
houses will be cheap
gasoline will be cheap
good life

and dollars are cheap.. in fact they're becoming worthless

@43 You're wrong.
It's currently deflationary.
It may be inflationary later.

@43 nope, other countries are crashing faster
people fled to safety and dollar is rising

@46
I don't think people are fleeing to safety.
It's more likely that Americans are deleveraging their foreign investment and returning to America.
Anyway, that's my thoery on the behavior at the currency exchange.

Yes, S&P is down again!
Stopped shorting on Monday and Tuesday.
Shorting again on Wednesday.
God bless the crash.

... And fuck the poor bastards who have to pick up the bill.

Fuck you , i'm alright jack.

"In the coming disaster and marshal law , "

en.wikipedia.org

Damn, S&P shot back up after dipping 870. Been hoping for S&P hitting 840.
Profit from the shorting just got wiped out. There is still too much confidence in the market.

@50 - For your information :

Martial law , or in America , 'marshal' law.

In the corporate fascist states such as America and der Euro-Reich , the military , the government and the 'civil' authorities are all controlled by a tiny elite.

Duuuh peepul don't have a voice , and even if they did , they wouldn't know what to say.

If that were not the case , then when Rumsfeldt (or whoever) stood up on the moron-o-scope and told you that the DOD "could not account for the whereabouts of 3 trillion dollars" , somebody would have gone to jail. Remember , just before 9/11 ?

Then when these 'financeers and bankers' and of course all the carpet-baggers following in their trail , perpetrated the biggest fraud and deception in history , somebody would have gone to jail. Remember , just a couple of days ago ?

And now , the same 'peepul' who stepped over their poor and destitute brothers and sisters every day will all be working out ways to enrich themselves. When the number of families being thrown out on the street by banks that should have gone to the wall , according to the rules of capitalism , people should be out in the street rioting , burning and looting but they can't.

In the past they could have , but not now.

Your masters have already drawn up plans , performed excercises and practice drills , designated vast 'holding-pens' , written the laws , recruited armed and trained extra para-military police , is mobilising and 'blooding' the military and carefully monitoring everything we all do.

In fact , the words i have posted here and on other threads could easily result in me being labeled a terrorist , dragged off to a torture camp and tortured , followed by being imprisoned indefinately without trial. Or even summarily executed by some trigger-happy cop.

All the above is true in most of the western , 'democratic' world now. Changing the name of it , does not change what it is. Anti - terrorism , homeland security , emergency powers , blah , blah.

It is Martial Law.

There is a huge , yawning great fuking hole in the worlds economy as big as a fuking galaxy. Things are going to change in the near future.

The nature of the relationship between the citizen and the state is going to change even more than it has in the last few years.

c

@52

"Martial law , or in America , 'marshal' law."

Damn you are one dumb fuck. Even when he posts a Wikipedia link for you to read and realize how much of an idiot it makes a person sound like when he spells it "marshal," you still refuse to spell it correctly (martial law). Learn to spell, fuckwad.

@52 What holding pens?

O.K., so no Democracy. What else is new? That all ended generations ago anyway.

gotta love the volatility after a crash
can margin buy and short repeatedly and quickly

Damn you are one dumb fuck. Even when he posts a Wikipedia link for you to read and realize how much of an idiot it makes a person sound like when he spells it "marshal," you still refuse to spell it correctly (martial law). Learn to spell, fuckwad.

Yeah, every idiot who says "OMGZ MARSHALL LAW" will get ignored by me. If you can't even spell it properly, how am I supposed to believe you that it will happen?

But I think that #52 was criticising the fact that many in the U.S. do spell it like that. I don't know how many compared to other English speaking countries though.

Ah damn! I completely miss the chance to short the third downturn.

I got in somewhat too late on the third shorting and got out a bit too early.
NIKKEI hit new 52-week low
Hang Send hit new 52-week low
FTSE hit new 52-week low
TSX hit new 52-week low

Typo
Hang Seng not Hang Send

Oh my god, ULTRA-ultrashort ETFs have been created!

@60 The new triple-leveraged Direxion ETF will be the bomb! Just how many small investors will be blown up?
A 10% daily gain will become a 30% gain! So, if Direxion made the SEC filing 2 months and got their ETF functioning 2 months earlier, the 40% drop in DOW would have wiped the bull out.

PS: Can't wait to try triple-leveraged at a time when the VIX is so high...

I'm happy to see that not everyone here is interested in conspiracy theories and naked children.

@63 Core is for saying things you don't want to say in a crowded subway.
If you profit from a market crash, you don't want to yell it out loud in public.
If you profit from stock movement by lawsuits, you don't want to post it on your blog.
If you profit from commodities movement by wars, you don't want to discuss it on a regular forum.
Analysts who publish their predictions and profit from misery of others often face DoS attacks, SPAM, death threats, etc.
Humanity is not enlightened to the point where you can be praised for making accurate predictions of misery.

Don't get me wrong, But I think it's good for people.
The world will be more stable when it ends.

@53 - Learn what a pun is you half-witted cunt.

@53 - Or better yet , learn to fucking think.

Money is just a reflection of consumer and investor confidence. It isn't anything real; it's just psychology.

@56 Nope. "Marshall Law" hails themselves as "True British Metal". www.marshalllaw.co.uk
In your face, America bashers! Bwahahahahahahaha!!

I think in another thread 'marshall law guy' said he was doing it in a reference to the title Marshall, which is some american wild west thing.

@70 The term is a military/police title: www.merriam-webster.com[1]
The title is commonly used in movies about the old west, but is not exclusive to that context.

Andrew "Yoda" Mashall? of the Pentagon?

Typo: Andrew "Yoda" Marshall

Gov is planning to bail out Ford, GM, and Chrysler, wtf is with capitalism?
Why don't they just let the three lazy giants die to allow for more fuel-efficient automobile companies to grow?

@73
The guy in Pentagon who commissioned a report about Climate Wars on the effect of global warming in geopolitics and American National Security before being sack by George W. Bush for bringing up Global Warming in his administration?

@75 Why, you ask? Why don't you think of the factory workers! Seriously, are you being rhetorical?

Lol, I just realize how much rhetorical questions are in this thread.
@77 No, it's not for the workers. It's capitalism for the poor and socialism for the rich. If the governmnet care about the workers, they could just bail out the workers. They don't have to bail out the unprofitable business management.

it's time to get in on the government handout, my man
just buy the big 3 stock when they become penny stock
wait for the government to bail the big 3 out and cash it in